It’s easy for B2B marketing to skew factual and dry, and it often forgets that on the receiving end of messaging and marketing, there are actual humans with senses of humor and personalities. Alex Reed, Global Marketing Director for Big Ass Fans, knows this well, and has used it to craft funny, innovative B2B marketing and branding that connects with his audience on an emotional level.
In this episode of Renegade Thinkers Unite, Alex and Drew discuss the importance of using humor in marketing, share inventive ways to connect with customers, and examine why being relatable, funny, and approachable is extremely important, even if you’re an industrial-size fan manufacturing company.
This conversation is loaded with helpful insights into creative marketing, click here to listen now!
What You’ll Learn
Customer Listening Drove Big Ass Fans to Get Creative
Alex shared a story of how the name went from the lackluster “HVLS Fan Company” to “Big Ass Fans”. There was no big secret to the company’s a-ha moment, they simply listened to customers who would call and ask “are you the guys that sell those big-ass fans?”. It was an early lesson for the company: pay attention to what your customers are saying and adjust to fit what they’re looking for can have massive payoffs. Alex also stresses that, in making these creative decisions, it’s important to run everything by his team; if he’s making a joke, it can’t be too uptight otherwise it won’t be funny, and it can’t be too crass otherwise it’ll be poorly received.
How Big Ass Fans Connects with Customers
Humor and creativity need to be ingrained in the company culture; a funny company name can only take a brand so far. “Big Ass Fans” can get a prospect’s attention, but there’s plenty more hard work that goes into landing a sale. Alex Reed and the marketing team committed to taking traditional outreach efforts and twisting them to deliver messages in a way that sets them apart. Rather than physical mailers, they produced a quarterly magazine that avoids being a catalogue and focuses on human interest pieces related to company employees or industries they service. The company used this to build up the ‘Big Ass Fan Club’ from the subscriptions, and now have a robust infrastructure for maintaining positive relationships with the customer base.
The Primary Goal for All Marketers
In reflecting on the lessons he’s learned as CMO of Big Ass Fans as a brand, Alex’s first piece of advice was that a marketer’s number one job is to stand out. Big Ass Fans delivers humor, and shares their company culture with the world, but Alex notes that there are plenty of ways to connect with your audience emotionally, you just have to find them. For more in-depth discussions surrounding marketing and Big Ass Fans, listen to the full episode.
- [1:17] Drew ponders the use of humor in B2B marketing and introduces Alex as his guest for this episode
- [4:00] Why Alex uses humor in his communication strategy
- [8:08] Big Ass Fan’s innovative way of connecting with their customers
- [15:20] The Big Ass ways of acquiring customers
- [20:16] Using traditional media in nontraditional ways to connect with customers
- [27:36] The role humor plays in acquiring customers and hiring top talent
- [30:32] Alex shares his best lessons for marketing
Connect With Alex:
- Big Ass Fans website
- Connect with Alex on LinkedIn
- Follow Big Ass Fans on Twitter
- Follow Big Ass Fans on Facebook
Resources & People Mentioned
Connect with Drew
Full Transcript: Drew Neisser in conversation with Alex Reed
Drew Neisser: Hey, it’s Drew, and this is a little preamble for the show. I just got finished talking with Alex Reed who is the Global Marketing Director at Big Ass Fans. We have a fun show for you. We talk about the origin of the name, how they built up this loyal customer base, how they continue to support those customers by zigging when everyone else is zagging. We actually talked about a magazine that they created that comes out quarterly. We talked about a digital experiment that didn’t actually work the way they had expected and about the power of having a sense of humor—not taking yourself too seriously but taking your product very seriously. With that, enjoy the show.
Drew Neisser: As I was getting off my flight last night—it was late—the captain reintroduced himself and reminded us how he considered all of us on the plane to be part of the Jet Blue family. Just to prove his point, he told us that he had four kids and the youngest was a bit of a joker. She asked her dad, “What kind of bagel can fly, Dad?” Pausing briefly for the passengers to ponder the riddle, he then told us the answer: “A plane bagel.” Of course, we were all too tired even to groan at that point but many of us actually laughed and de-planed with even more positive feelings about Jet Blue.
This sort of reminded me that the use of humor by consumer brands whether it’s in the experience or in their marketing is so infrequent, but in B2B land, it’s practically non-existent. It’s like B2B marketers forgot there are humans at the other end of the transaction and that likability matters. That brings me to today’s guest, Alex Reed, Global Marketing Director at Big Ass Fans—yep, you heard that name correctly—and it’s a brand that has infused its marketing with humor galore. We’re going to talk a lot about the role of humor as well as the power of an unexpected and undoubtedly courageous name. Without further ado, Alex, welcome to the show.
Alex Reed: Thanks, Drew. I’m really excited to speak with you.
Drew Neisser: Before we get too deep into this show, we have to address the elephant in the room, or I guess it’s the donkey in the room. Your company name “Big Ass Fans,” and I know you get this asked a million times, it’s such a cheeky name. I got to imagine that it just sets up the opportunity for humor every day.
Alex Reed: You’re absolutely right. That’s the first question people ask when they’re introduced to our company, “How did you come up with that name?” It’s a great story because the business actually started as the HVLS Fan Company, which really rolls off the tongue. The only thing in common with “Big Ass Fans” is that it was a descriptive, it was descriptive of the tech being high volume, low speed.
After a couple of years hearing phone calls with people asking the question, “Are you the guys that make those big ass fans?” it was adopted. It was really influenced by the customer, which was a big lesson in the early years of the business. Listen to your customers. Take risks, but first and foremost do what’s right for the customer. The name Big Ass Fans was just a perfect fit for what we make.
Drew Neisser: It’s interesting to me a couple of things you said—yes, the customer helped name it. That gives you a really strong position that wasn’t just a marketing ploy, it actually came from a customer, it’s descriptive, and it’s real, human talk. Talk a little bit about your communications strategy. What does a Big Ass brief look like?
Alex Reed: Well, I think the number one thing for Big Ass Fans is that the name sets very high expectations for us. One, anything we deliver to our customers or potential customers is delivered in an unexpected way. They don’t want ordinary material from a company named Big Ass Fans. The other thing it forces you to do is to be really good at everything—the product manufacturing, the design, the service you provide to customers—the expectation when you see a company name named Big Ass Fans in central Kentucky, it’s just a bunch of guys slapping airfoils together in a garage somewhere. The name forces you to be really good at what you do, but also to connect with customers in unexpected ways.
Drew Neisser: That’s interesting. With a name like that, the quality may not be expected, because there may be some sense of gimmicky-ness so you have to actually work a little bit harder to make sure that the product is there. When you think about your strategy, how do you know if your communications have gone too far?
Alex Reed: That’s a great question. It really is a fine line. I think there’s a spectrum of humor that’s childish on one side, meaning suitable for children. There’s crass on the other, and you’ve got to find that line where it’s clever and confident. It’s not lazy, it’s not gratuitous swearing or making easy jokes. There’s a lot of thought that goes into the brand and how we communicate with our customers. The name itself is provocative, it gets people talking, so I think, for us, we don’t have to go over the top in our communications.
We certainly don’t want to be inappropriate. The nature of our products really gives us the creative license. We use the name Big Ass Fans because it’s sort of like an inside joke that everybody’s in on: “Oh they really are big ass fans!” Every business is going to be different, but I think the consumers tell the difference between clever inappropriateness and just crass inappropriateness.
Drew Neisser: What percentage of your business today is B2B?
Alex Reed: About 75-80% of our business is B2B.
Drew Neisser: That’s you selling directly to a warehouse, a giant gym, Jay Leno’s garage, a church—a big facility, a business, that has a space that needs a big ass fan in it.
Alex Reed: Over the years we’ve actually evolved into offering not so big ass fans. We actually have products for virtually any space with a ceiling, indoors or out. But you’re right—a lot of our core customers are in the manufacturing distribution space, we sell to 70% of Fortune 500s, so we use the saying that any product you consume today has probably been manufactured or distributed underneath one of our fans. We sell to a lot of restaurants, schools, churches, public spaces, hotels. Our customer base is extremely diverse. You hit the nail on the head. You have tall ceilings, it’s difficult to condition those spaces from a comfort and efficiency standpoint, and the fans really help to create value for the customer.
Drew Neisser: Let’s just talk about a specific initiative recently that you’ve done that will help folks understand. We can certainly link to it. What’s your approach and your sense of humor?
Alex Reed: One of the things the name does is draw people to connect with the company, to really understand what it’s like to work here. We always joke that people like to live vicariously through us because if you work at ACME stamping corporation and you have Big Ass Fans in that facility, it’s something that brings some levity to otherwise what might be considered a boring workplace.
What we produced starting last year into this year was a magazine, which seems sort of contrarian since everything has been moving through a digital landscape for a B2B fan manufacturer to create such a thorough piece of content. What that magazine does is really puts a spotlight on our customers, our company culture, on what sets us apart, on how we do things, and we have a really engaged audience that loves to read and consume that type of stuff. These are the people that are sharing pictures of our fans when they see them out in the wild on social media. These are the people that wear our hats and our shirts. The magazine was a piece of content tied into a larger program to really give these Big Ass Fans, the enthusiasts of our company, an outlet.
Drew Neisser: I’m imagining it could be a catalog—how did you infuse humor and your idea of brand into the magazine?
Alex Reed: We’re very careful that it’s not overly promotional. People are inundated every day with advertisements, sales pitches, and the reason that people like to read about the company, experience the company, come on tours, is because they perceive the culture here, the things that we’re doing and making to be different, out of the ordinary. There’s a north star for us just on that content. What we show them should not be this catalog-style piece of literature.
In the most recent issue, we highlighted one of our international sales employees who has traveled the world for this company, who came from a small town in rural Kentucky that either didn’t have electric lines or didn’t have water lines running through his house for the first five years of his life. It’s somebody that we took in at a very young age who has developed his career here, who’s gone out and supported the business’s growth internationally.
That sort of human-interest piece actually gives us an identity, gives you the inside look at how we view things, how we go to market, how we value employees, and value growth both for the company and for individuals. That’s just one example of the type of content that we want to give to our customers who are really interested in what makes Big Ass Fans tick.
Drew Neisser: How did you know that the magazine was effective for you? How did you judge its success?
Alex Reed: It was a pretty interesting baseline. We had a response rate that was probably two to three times greater than any other piece of physical mail we’ve sent to a customer.
Drew Neisser: The response rate meaning people coming back to your website, people just saying “Hey, thanks for the magazine”?
Alex Reed: People subscribing. We mailed these and there’s a call to action to subscribe if you want to receive future editions, and we got a response rate that far-exceeded our promotional direct mail items.
Drew Neisser: Interesting. How often are you publishing your magazine?
Alex Reed: We’re publishing it quarterly. We’ve taken the subscriber base and we’ve turned it into—you’ve probably guessed the name, the Big Ass Fan Club. It’s one touchpoint in the Big Ass Fan Club where they’ll get first introductions to products, special pricing on our swag, an annual holiday gift, things that really one, give an outlet to these people that I call big ass fans of Big Ass Fans to talk about us, to share material, but also it’s a reward for them. We’ll give them perks and freebies and some of the reciprocal love they give to us.
Drew Neisser: I love all of that. We’re going to take a quick break but when we come back, we’ll dive in a little bit deeper on that because there’s so much going on that, as some folks would say, I’d like to unpack. We’ll be right back.
Drew Neisser: We’re back. My guest is Alex Reed, the global marketing director at Big Ass Fans, and we were talking about a loyalty program of sorts that Alex and co have developed. It included a magazine that got people to subscribe. This approach seems so fresh in a digital world. I’ve talked to some other marketers who have zigged when others are zagging. Magazines, particularly when they’re well-written and they feature your customers, are killing it because nobody’s getting direct mail anymore. It’s a bill or that’s it.
There’s an advantage there, but the other thing that I was going to mention is that this type of program could go back. You could date it back to the Guinness Book of World Records which was developed for Guinness drinkers, the Michelin guide which was developed to get people to drive their cars and use their tires more, The notion of creating content that is of value to your customers first as a way of building fans is tried and true. It’s just amazing to me that you all can get the magazine to work. So that’s cool and you have this fan club which is cool. What are you doing to acquire customers?
Alex Reed: Yeah. Not to be lost in all of that, we’re a very data and insight-driven organization. One of the ways in which we acquire customers that really drove the program and several others is that a large portion of our customers first become aware of us by experiencing a product firsthand. That is intuitive because, until you’ve stood underneath one of these products, you really can’t know how effective it is, how much air it puts out, how massive they are.
We’ve been designing and implementing programs for a number of years but we’re expanding now in the digital age to get people underneath fans. They’re customer or VIP type events. Industry trade shows have been a staple for us for a long time because we can blow all the papers off our neighbor’s booth. Informal social gatherings. We’ve done brewery events where we serve beer in our pint glasses.
We’ve done coffee and cars where we get automotive groups together, Porsche groups, Mustang groups, to come together and experience the products we have for garages and automotive places. We serve coffee in our coffee mugs. It’s really an integrated experience that we’re trying to reproduce that organic value that’s created when a customer first walks underneath our fans.
For many years, we heard constantly that “You guys have fans in Punta Cana Airport.” That’s in the Dominican Republic, a popular tourist destination. It was telling us something which our research ultimately validated. That’s how our customers typically come to us. There’s a lot of traditional media—letters, print, digital, direct—but at the end of the day, our products are the best way to introduce the brand and the technology to the consumer. Beyond that, we see a lot of word of mouth, and that’s what we’re fostering with the Big Ass Fan Club.
Drew Neisser: Oh gosh. Love this. This aligns with so many interesting extensions. One big point that you’ve made is that people have to experience to appreciate what exactly is a big ass fan can do for them. It’s one thing when you have a controlled environment, but you can’t be everywhere. You can’t do millions of these experiences. How do you decide which of these events are the right events? Even though it’s B2B, you’re not selling through distributors, right? You have to get the person who owns the church, or you have to get the person who owns the warehouse to become aware of you.
Alex Reed: That’s right.
Drew Neisser: How are you making the decision about which events to attend? On a per experience basis, it could be very expensive.
Alex Reed: It can be very expensive. There’s a lot of trial and error but because we’re direct, we have a wealth of customer data. We know where they are located, we know what industries they’re in, we know who their peers are. We’re able to curate the invite list. Not that anybody at some point in time couldn’t be a Big Ass Fans customer, but to be able to rank them by likeliness of becoming a customer, we’ll do all sorts of selects.
As you can imagine, with a heat map for Big Ass Fans, we have a concentration in the south, southeast, Texas, as well as in major manufacturing and industrial markets like Pennsylvania. We really start with the regions that we want to hit and then we think about the industries within those that we want to serve. We don’t. We reach 100% of the people through that program. We still do traditional media in non-traditional ways.
Getting people to experience the products, take pictures of them or with our floor fans, and share them with their network is very important to our strategy. It’s easy to forget that the frame of reference for most people in this country or globally is the small fan. It’s either the pedestal fan in the factory that’s a personal cooler or the small residential ceiling fan. You can tell them that this is a big fan and it works differently but standing underneath one or next to one is a totally different experience. It’s one of those a-ha moments for our customers.
Drew Neisser: You have a strong event program. You mentioned using traditional media in non-traditional ways. Can you expand on that?
Alex Reed: Yes. We use a lot of direct marketing as a staple of our communications with our customers. You hit the nail on the head earlier in the discussion. People don’t get mail anymore. It’s the best-kept secret. People pay attention to what we send them in the mail and a lot of times we’re able to offer something small, like a coffee mug, just for reaching out to us and letting us know what you think. We can really measure engagement from a traditional form of marketing like direct mail relative to more non-traditional, various from digital marketing, and we’ve seen consistently with our demographic in the markets that we serve that direct mail is a higher response rate driver.
Drew Neisser: There you go. Being able to offer a coffee mug just to check us out is enough to get attention. Again, that builds your mailing list, and I imagine there is a pretty high value per customer, so it makes this direct pay out pretty well.
Alex Reed: Absolutely. We have a pretty great customer acquisition cost within our category, but getting lifetime value, 70% of our customers come back and buy again. Finding a way to get them to raise their hands and engage with us is like planting the seed for the future. Over the past six or seven years, we got really aggressive building our database, building this community of people to follow and engage with Big Ass Fans. Not with the expectation that they were all going to buy today, but we have such a diversity of applications for the product that there is real value to having these contacts in our database. It helps when they have that opportunity either recommended a Big Ass Fan or purchase one directly.
Drew Neisser: As we wrap up this section, has there been anything that you’ve tried in the last 18 months that just fell flat?
Alex Reed: Yeah. Marketing is definitely a testbed of sorts. We were not immune to being enamored of this digital transformation concept which absolutely has merit. I think where we missed was not understanding the measurement impact or the measurement of outcomes with the different digital marketing levers that you have. If you’re comparing it to print or direct marketing, which is obviously less easy to tag an attribution to, you’ll skew your medium mix significantly.
Some of the big companies have come out and said that a lot of it ends up being wasted for them. They cut their digital spend with no impact on their top or bottom line. For us, we made a similar mistake in that we liked it because it was easy to see what was happening, but we missed the forest for the trees when you look at our customers and what they tell us they respond to when we survey them. When we connected with them in different ways, we were not aligning with the way they wanted to interact with us. I’d say that was our biggest miss over the last 18 months. We corrected it, but it was definitely an expensive mistake.
Drew Neisser: To be clear on this, you’re talking about spending programmatically? Or you tried online digital advertising and invested heavily in it as a means of getting folks to visit your website. As far as you could tell, that didn’t drive your business forward.
Alex Reed: Right. We tried every form of digital marketing we could think of. What we found was that essentially the model we had built was crediting those digital touchpoints, but what was actually driving the customer in the first place was some other interaction with our brand.
Drew Neisser: Interesting. That’s an interesting thing because, in truth, it takes multiple interactions. The mistake was trying to make that digital into a direct response vehicle when instead it was really an awareness-building, top of the funnel activity. But even then, if you looked at it that way, it sounds like there were better ways for you to spend your money.
Alex Reed: Yeah, you nailed it. Everybody should understand what role each touchpoint plays in the customer journey and come up with a metric that makes sense. For us, we were looking at all things equally, so maybe the mistake really wasn’t digital marketing. I do believe there’s value in that. It was a misunderstanding of what role these touchpoints played as the customer moved along the journey from awareness to consideration to conversion and ultimately, retention. Digital can touch each point there in the spectrum, but we looked at it as a more efficient vehicle than some of our traditional forms just by their nature of being highly attributable.
Drew Neisser: We’re going to take a quick break and when we come back, we’re going to get back to humor. We talked about a lot of fun stuff, but we haven’t really talked about some of the silly stuff that they’ve done over at Big Ass Fans. We’ll be right back.
Drew Neisser: We’re back to wrap up the show with Alex Reed, Global Marketing Director at Big Ass Fans. I watched a couple of your videos. There was the tour. You’ve named your donkey “Fanny.” You did a very tongue-in-cheek video of an office tour. Talk about the role that humor plays, not just as a way of getting customers. It must have some role in recruiting employees and retention.
Alex Reed: You’re absolutely right. Life’s too short to be boring and I don’t understand why businesses gravitate towards ordinary communications, ordinary brands. You don’t have to have a cheeky name like Big Ass Fans to have a sense of humor. Remember that there is a human on the other side of the phone or mailbox.
For us, humor is essential to everything we do. I mentioned delivering material in an unexpected way, and I think messages need to be delivered in an unexpected way. That doesn’t mean the sales pitch has to be magical. Sometimes it is content that shows how we’re a fun company, we enjoy what we’re doing, and we’ll share some of that joy with you.
One of my favorite examples is that we used to get so many phone calls from irate mail recipients. They were never really customers or going to be customers but of course, they would call and say, “I’ll never do business with a company with a name like yours!” We would take those calls; we’d hear them out. What happened every time is that they would end up cussing us out, which is fantastic because they called us to tell us our name is crass and then they end up swearing at us.
We took those and we turned them into our own mixtapes and shared those with customers because we have probably that 2-3% minority that thinks the name is disgusting and wants us to change it. That’s an ever-shrinking number. But then the people who like it, really like it and they want to defend it, so they get a kick out of things like that.
Drew Neisser: Your fan club is definitely stepping up. That really speaks to the difference between a generic and a real brand. A real brand has fans that will step up. That’s how you know. They will step up and defend you particularly in the face of silliness like that and especially given the source of the name to begin with. I love the mixtapes. How about another example of a video or some other thing that you’ve done on the humor scale that rang the bell?
Alex Reed: I’ll give you a sneak peek of something that we’re working on now. Because the name Big Ass Fans starts with “Big Ass,” we get a lot of people who are looking for something different visiting our website and our social media feeds. They’ll private message us and our social person has a great sense of humor. She has a lot of fun with it, but they’ll ask her to send things, like “Send me a pic,” that kind of stuff.
She will send a picture of Fanny, our mascot donkey, in a bikini, or something like that. We’re going put a video compilation together called “Not what they expected,” showing some of these interactions we had with these poor guys—I’ll just say guys because they’re all guys coming to the website expecting something a little more unsavory than ceiling fans.
Drew Neisser: As you look back at what you’re doing, are there one or two big lessons learned particularly when it comes to the use of humor, building your brand, and selling your products?
Alex Reed: The easiest thing to remember which I always preach internally is that the number one job of marketing is to stand out. Humor is a great way to do that. We all like to laugh, we all love a good joke. It’s not the only way to connect with your customers on a more emotional level, but you’ve got to find a way to stand out. I’m not recommending every person changes his company’s name to “Big Ass Something.” That’s not the recipe for success.
But just remember, there’s so much noise, so many things that you compete with for attention. If you don’t stand out, it doesn’t matter how great your product or service is. The dichotomy there is that you have to deliver. If you’re going to rely on humor as a vehicle to deliver your message, then service has to be top-notch. The products have to be great because there is an expectation that you’re not just goofing around.
Those two things are really important. Just stand out. I’ve never understood and it’s not how my brain works, but I think there is an inclination for people to just gravitate towards the norm. It’s the job of marketing professions to pull it back and make sure that you’re not talking to yourself. That you’re really thinking about this from the eyes of the prospective customer.
Drew Neisser: We use the term “cut through” here at Renegade Thinkers Unite. I totally, obviously, agree with you that \marketing that doesn’t cut through is pretty much the proverbial tree that falls in the forest that nobody gets to hear. Is there somebody in the organization that you show a video to or talk about an idea? If they don’t laugh, you don’t do it?
Alex Reed: That’s a great question, but no. I wouldn’t say there’s that one person. I’m very team-oriented and it’s more of a larger sample size. If nobody is laughing, it’s probably a problem. If half the group’s laughing, maybe you want to understand why the others didn’t think it was funny. It’s a little bit more informal, but I really like hearing people outside of the company weigh in. I was on a call this morning and I pitched an idea to somebody looking at some fans, and it was totally unrelated to their project. But they were cracking up and that’s a good sign because they don’t work for the company. It’s important to get out there, get outside of your bubble, and understand what the audience thinks about it.
Drew Neisser: Really interesting conversation. I’m going to take a stab at wrapping up which I do in every episode. First, if you have an opportunity to rename your company, you don’t necessarily have to take yourself too seriously. What I think is really important in this is that this story came from customers. You can’t forget that because if you just make it up it feels like marketing, but when it is something that actually people refer to the product as, then it’s legit and you can go there.
A lot of what Alex talked about was being customer-oriented. I’ve always felt that if your marketing works for your customers, the worst that happens is that you have happy customers. Creating content like the magazine that Alex described which, again, is unexpected in a digital world. That’s crazy talk in a digital world. What’s so interesting is that the magazine generated a database of names which then allowed a loyalty program and there was this constant virtuous circle of supporting the customer, sharing fun content, getting them involved, and encouraging them to share their pictures of the fan, which ultimately leads to the next big area.
We have these customers, but we still have to get new people into the franchise. How do we do that? Well, we need trial. That’s true for just about every category. Well, getting someone to experience a big ass fan is something where you’ve got to bring them to your space unless you’re lucky enough that you happen to be at a convention center or factory or somewhere else where they already are. We’ve got this unique name, unique positioning, a sense of humor, a customer database, and then distinctive trial programs.
Lastly, don’t be fooled with digital at least when it comes to metrics. We all see the digital metrics and we say, “We can measure everything!” But if those measurements aren’t really truly getting you to where you want to go, then the digital may not be the end-all and be-all for your business. It’s important to find that out quickly because you can spend a lot of money and a lot of cool ways in digital, but not necessarily get results that you were looking for. Alex, thanks again for being on the show.
Alex Reed: My pleasure. Thanks for having me here.
Drew Neisser: For the fans and folks that listen to Renegade Thinkers Unite, I’m so grateful for the time that you’ve spent with us. I hope you’ll share the show with your friends. As always, I encourage you to subscribe. E-mail me, send me some comments. Send me a picture of a fan that you’ve seen somewhere. Be a fan of the show. Let’s fan out here, folks. Anyway, until next time, keep your Renegade Thinking Caps on and strong