With 25 years in the tech industry, Conversica CMO Rashmi Vittal knows a thing or two about sales and marketing alignment. She knows that it’s about “company-wide enablement” as opposed to “sales enablement.” She knows the value of a simplified product message. And she knows the common excuse, “Well, I gave leads to sales and they just didn’t do anything with them,” just won’t cut it.
In this week’s episode, Drew and Rashmi discuss her nine-square “Alignment Between Sales and Marketing” grid (see below). It’s a simple yet thorough model, one that recognizes that achieving alignment is about constant evolution and clear communication. Be sure to tune in to hear how Conversica applies this grid in action, as well as how they’ve pivoted in 2020.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode
- How Conversica aligns sales and marketing
- How to simply your product messaging
- Why company-wide alignment is a continuous evolution
Renegade Thinkers Unite, Episode 201 on YouTube
- Renegade LLC’s demand generation report
- RTU Episode #196: “Raising the Bar with Virtual Events”
- Conversica’s Tea & Snippets podcast
- [0:29] The No-Excuses Episode
- [3:52] Revising Conversica’s 2020 Plans
- [6:10] How to Generate Leads with Virtual Events
- [12:12] Conversica’s Q2 2020 Employee Mental Health Days
- [15:34] Rashmi’s Sales/Marketing Alignment Grid
- [20:50] Why You Need to Invest in a Product Marketing Team
- [23:52] How to Simplify Your Product Messaging
- [28:35] Company-Wide Collaboration and Enablement Are Key
- [32:28] How Conversica Achieves Sales/Marketing Alignment
- [35:47] Marketing Your Alignment Plan Internally
- [37:51] Drew’s Wrap Up: Aligning Sales and Marketing
Transcript Highlights: Drew Neisser in conversation with Rashmi Vittal
[0:29] The No-Excuses Episode“The age-old marketing excuse, ‘Hey, we filled the pipeline and sales just didn't close,’ won't cut it.” @drewneisser #RenegadeThinkersUnite #podcast Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: Hello, Renegade Thinkers! When I was a kid, my dad and I would play catch a lot. It didn’t matter whether it was a baseball, a basketball, or a football. He would always say the same thing to me: “If you can touch it, you can catch it.”
Now, I didn’t always catch it. But over time, I got better and better and to this day, if you throw a ball at me, I will probably be able to catch it. I certainly won’t ever make an excuse because what he was really doing when he was saying, “If you can touch it, you can catch it,” was taking away any excuses I might make. He was giving me personal responsibility for it and also a sense of optimism. I love that combination of personal responsibility and optimism.
To this day, I promise you—if you throw something at me, I won’t be angry. I’ll probably catch it. That gets us to the topic of today’s episode, which we’re calling the “no excuses episode.”
If you want to help your organization touch more customers—what I really mean to say is if you want to help your organization catch more customers—you need to be fully aligned with sales and expand your sense of responsibility all the way through the funnel to closure.
The age-old marketing excuse, “Hey, we filled the pipeline and sales just didn’t close,” won’t cut it. You know that, I know that. That’s just old school thinking and we’re so far beyond that today. So, we agree, but it is fair to ask, is there a systematic way to achieve sales and marketing alignment?
Good news, there is! Today’s guest, Rashmi Vittal, CMO of Conversica, is going to walk us through exactly how you do this, which I’m very excited about. Now, Rashmi, by the way, is a veteran tech marketer, having worked at IBM, Oracle, Neustar, and SAP before joining Conversica in late 2018. Rashmi, welcome to the show.
Rashmi Vittal: Hey, Drew. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
[3:52] Revising Conversica’s 2020 Plans“How are we going to generate the interest and the demand now that this is a digital-only world?” @rashmivittal10 #RenegadeThinkersUnite #podcast Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: We did a study, I think you participated in it, where we surveyed B2B CMOs and asked how much impact COVID has had on their 2020 marketing plans. I think 55% noted that they completely rewrote their plans from scratch. Where were you on that continuum of “no changes” to “100% revising?”
Rashmi Vittal: We were probably in between somewhere. There were certainly parts of our marketing plan that focused on strategy that we shifted and pivoted quite rapidly at the beginning of Q2. We put a lot of our focus in starting Q2 into one part of our go-to-market strategy, which is around going up-market, really focusing on mid-market and enterprise. We had also had a pretty big investment in SMB, but we decided to move that into an indirect model versus a direct model over time. That was a big shift and that also had a shift in our strategy.
We sell to sales and marketing people, we sell to account managers, customer success people. As a group, as a herd, we love meeting, so physical events is still a pretty big thing in our industry. That’s an investment we make as part of our demand gen plan. Once those physical events just evaporated, you had to pivot. There was the whole notion of, okay, how are we going to generate the interest and the demand now that this is a digital-only world?
And hey, if you had really strong digital chops, you probably did just fine. If you were balancing between the offline and online world and you underinvested in digital, you really had to come right back up to speed. We had no choice. We had to pivot and had to do it fast, so we hustled. I’m really proud of how quickly we did that.
[6:10] How to Generate Leads with Virtual EventsWe’re saying, “What kind of event can we bring to your account list that's going to be really meaningful?” @rashmivittal10 #RenegadeThinkersUnite #podcast Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: A lot of marketers that I’ve talked to, events were as much as 50% of the leads that used to fill the pipeline. I don’t know where you were before but replacing those is no small challenge. It sounds like you did a couple things. One, you changed your target and went after the enterprise. But what have you done specifically to replace the event leads?
Rashmi Vittal: We are doing way more webinars. We’re very selective about our webinars, but just doing more of them in terms of selectivity. We’re really asking things like, “Who are you targeting?” and making sure that we’re getting the right target account list. Those who were holding physical events and then shifting to virtual, we saw early on that they never netted the same experience. It was a completely different experience and it was underwhelming.
What we found instead is that getting really strong topics, really good panelists, whether it was us or us working with a partner of ours, yielded more results. I think that was important. I think what we learned moving forward is we’re engaging with a wide variety of different vendors now than we would have before for third party webinar sponsorship. We’ve seen it yield some pretty decent results so far.
But the one thing you can’t escape is that, when you’re able to have that back and forth, two-way, real-time dialogue at an event, between having the verbal plus the physical and having that communication, it really helps salespeople out. They thrive in that. I think we’re still trying to figure out how to make that work for them. Salespeople have been affected quite heavily on this. Going 100% remote is hard for a lot of salespeople to deal with. They’re just naturally extroverted people and I think this has been a bit of a challenge.
Drew Neisser: One of the things that we’ve seen a lot of is just really starting at the basic level to teach salespeople how to use LinkedIn and how to use it effectively and how to get conversations. It’s amazing how many successful salespeople out there had almost no profile and didn’t know how to engage socially. That it’s been an interesting one.
I want to go back just quickly to your comment about virtual events because I totally agree with you. The first initial events out of the box were just horrible. I mean, they were really very bad, and some big brands had rushed to do it. I featured Michelle BB from Skillsoft on the show and saw their event. They did an exceptional job and I’m going to just toot our horn a little bit. We wrote that up in a recent demand generation report and actually came up with 13 things that Skillsoft did right in their virtual event if you’re looking for how to do it.
I think it’s possible. It’s hard. She had 138 people working on their virtual event. They had a big production, but it was really well done. It was a great experience and it gave me a sense of optimism. The one risk with over-relying on webinars is, how many can you do? There is burnout.
Rashmi Vittal: Absolutely. There’s burnout. There’s overexposure. There are all those things. It’s about trying to keep things fresh and up to date. There’s a difference between educational content, peer groups, roundtables. There are all sorts of formats you can create.
To your point on virtual events, we’re actually starting to host some of our own Conversica-hosted events, but more from a field marketing event perspective. In that notion, what we’re doing is really working closely with sales within their territories and with their customers or their prospects. We’re asking, “What kind of event can we bring to your account list that’s going to be really meaningful?” I’m excited about what we’re doing, but I’m going to read your article and see how many of those we’re checking off.
Drew Neisser: It’s a good summary, and again, I did actually attend multiple virtual events right off the bat from big brand names—one company that you actually worked at before. It was scary bad. On the reverse side of it, Skillsoft got it right. I think part of it was that it was less technical so maybe that’s where my bias was, but all the presenters were good. There was lots of opportunity for interactivity and Q&As and all of those things.
Going back to the webinar formula—of the few good webinars that I’ve attended, everything is reversed. You put the customer first instead of the brand first. You put the Q&A second so that you can get the interaction. Whatever message you want to do, you put that third. In webinars that don’t work, the brand talks for half an hour about their vision and where they’re going. It’s like, no, I want to really hear about the customer and how they’re using it. Then, when they are done, they leave like seven minutes for questions. People are there to get real-time feedback if they’re curious enough to spend an hour with you.
[12:12] Conversica’s Q2 2020 Employee Mental Health Days“We've now designated one Friday a month that everybody can take off.” @rashmivittal10 #RenegadeThinkersUnite #podcast Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: One of the challenges that a lot of CMOs are facing is how to work. We’re obviously well past the point of knowing how to work virtually, but still, we’re at a new phase of this where we’ve been doing it for four months. People are getting a little tired of certain things that we do every week. What are you doing to keep your team excited and motivated despite the fact that they can’t get together physically?
Rashmi Vittal: Just yesterday we had a happy hour, and we still like it. Half of us brought a beverage, half of us didn’t. It’s nice to take a break and just talk and hear about what’s going on in our personal lives. One of the key things that I’m doing is making sure my team is taking vacation.
It felt like in Q2 it was a little taboo to take. I’m really trying to push them in this quarter to go take some vacation. I think the other thing we started early on that my team is implementing is what I call mental health days. One Friday a month, take off and just go relax, rejuvenate. I think my team specifically valued that quite a bit.
Now we’re offering that as a company-wide benefit. We’ve now designated one Friday a month that everybody can take off. That’s great. When you are taking that Friday off, you don’t feel like you have to check your email. Everybody is supposed to be taking it off and that should help people just fully detach and relax.
Drew Neisser: One of the keys there is that you have to do that, too.
Rashmi Vittal: Yes. Fair point. You have to lead by example on this one.
[Break: To get your free ½ hour consulting session with our CEO, visit http://renegade.com]
[15:34] Rashmi’s Sales/Marketing Alignment GridCheck out @rashmivittal10’s grid for sales/marketing alignment in our #RenegadeThinkersUnite #podcast show notes: Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: When we had our prep call, Rashmi talked me through this grid on a virtual level. Since then, she’s sent it to me. Let’s go through this grid. You’ve applied this before, right? This isn’t just something that you’ve done at Conversica.
Rashmi Vittal: Correct. I think it’s organically manifested to this over time. A lot of it is held in my head and it’s a mash-up of 25 years in this industry, but ultimately, as I moved away from more of the development/product lifecycle side of the house and into the sales/marketing/professional services side of the house, I realized that there’s a need to make sure that marketing and sales have strong alignment. We can talk about marketing and customer success and account management later.
Of course, we’ve heard of all the movies that are out there. Glengarry Glen Ross is a great example: “Where’re my leads, where’re my leads?” It’s an age-old story, but it really still holds true. Interestingly enough, early last year we ran a short survey against marketing and sales leaders. It was really interesting. 87% of sales leaders said that their relationship to marketing is really important. 93% of marketing professionals said it was very important. It was very close in that regard.
While both sides think that it’s really important, we saw that over two-thirds who responded said that while it was good, it could be better. I think you have to think about all the different ways that you could actually make it better. That grid is something that I always found myself coming back to inherently.
What’s the go-to-market strategy? How do we really think about demand gen and its relationship with sales across different dimensions? Then, how do you really help sales become enabled as a marketing unit? There’s more that we can do than I think is traditionally done.
Drew Neisser: Let’s go through this and try to verbally paint the picture of this grid. Paint the picture of what this is.
Rashmi Vittal: In any organization, whatever department you’re working with, you always have to deal with people. People are there. People are always part of the scenario, but then you also have processes. Within the group or across groups, how do you get stuff done and what’s the expectation?
A lot of it is based on expectation and then the desired outcome you’re trying to get. The last is, how can you use technology today to help you achieve those goals? How can it be a vehicle for helping you achieve those goals?
I’d say on the left-hand side, you can have people, process, and technology. Across the top—and this is absolutely from a marketing mindset in terms of what marketers can do to help better align themselves to sales. One is go-to-market strategy. I boil it down to something super simple. Where’s the revenue coming from? If you’re going to set sales loose, where are they going to go get it? You really have to define that go-to-market strategy.
I think the second is that execution which leads to demand generation. How are you generating interest? And how much of that interest should come from marketing and how much of it should actually come from sales? What’s that joint relationship? It’s about generating what we love and know as pipeline and revenue.
The third area is enablement. While a lot of times it’s thought of as sales enablement, which is true, I also think of it as, if you have the right people on your team, you should be enabling the company. Marketing’s role is not on the outside, externally educating and influencing the market at large. It also should help with influencing within the company as well.
Those are the three I have: go-to-market strategy, demand generation, and enablement.
Drew Neisser: I completely agree. I also like the fact that it’s enablement, not sales enablement, because it does acknowledge the fact that there is an organization. Marketing can impact the entire organization and we want everybody to be brand ambassadors.
[20:50] Why You Need to Invest in a Product Marketing Team“The key responsibility of product marketing is to take that knowledge, translate it into simple messages. Then that can be pushed out into the market and used to enable sales.” @rashmivittal10 #RenegadeThinkersUnite #podcast Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: We’ve got people and we’ve got go-to-market strategy as ground zero for your grid. Talk about that in the context of Conversica, what you’ve done in the area of people and go-to-market.
Rashmi Vittal: The people you need to have on your team have to have the skill set of critically analyzing the market, having those touchpoints to understand the buyer. One is around really needing to understand who your ideal company profile is, who the persona is that maps to that. Then there’s a series of work that goes into defining that, but to get that you need—and this is something that I think is really important—you need the right people on your team to do that. Not just everybody is capable of doing that.
Typically, I believe that responsibility falls in what you consider a product marketing team. Investment in product marketing, I think, is essential. Not only to have the various connection points into product so that they can technically understand the product and help influence roadmap, but the key responsibility of product marketing is to take that knowledge, translate it into simple messages. Then that can be pushed out into the market and used to enable sales.
But part of that of product marketing is also they should also have responsibility on achieving revenue targets. They are the ones who can sit back and analyze the market, determine which industries’ market segments, evaluate the viability of those markets, what it would take to penetrate into those markets, scale and grow to those markets. Model that out and produce a strong hypothesis with market supported research to say, “Hey, I think this is pretty realistic.” The people there is important and being able to establish good relationships with sales. Sales is on the front lines. They’re the ones who are talking to the customer and prospects day in and day out. They’re the ones who have all the actual use cases, they’re the ones who harness the voice of the customer.
If you can join them during certain aspects of their sales cycle or really establish good relationships that you can hear from them, or better yet, if you actually have it recorded, listen to those sales calls, you’ll learn so much. That gets infused back into the go-to-market strategy building process.
[23:52] How to Simplify Your Product Messaging“Put yourself in your customer's shoes. Think as they do. And then start formulating and creating the criteria that matters to them.” @rashmivittal10 #RenegadeThinkersUnite #podcast Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: One of the things you said about product marketing was making it’s the message and the story is simple. I have to say, that is probably my biggest complaint with product marketing across the board in B2B. When I get a report as an agency person from product marketing, they list no less than of five attributes of that product and why it’s so great as opposed to one big hook and then support points to it.
What you end up with is a laundry list. They haven’t done the homework in order to really understand, “I’m not sure if this is it or this is it. We’re just going to put it all out there.” To me, that’s why so much of B2B marketing falls on deaf ears. Help us with that.
Rashmi Vittal: Oh, I will. In fact, at Conversica, we actually have a podcast called Tea and Snippets and this is one of the episodes that we’re going to cover: messaging. I have probably interviewed hundreds of product marketers; I came from product marketing. Running organizations and departments and product marketing at IBM and Oracle and SAP, when I’m interviewing candidates, I always ask them, “What is your process for creating messaging?”
You would be surprised at all the different answers that I get. A lot of it is them using their intuition. What they don’t realize is that there’s actually a decent structure and process that you could use to create very solid messaging. To that point, messaging is not necessarily the thing that you would take and start waving outside in terms of externally facing material.
You have to understand the foundation of what it is you’re trying to get across. And then from there, you can build a story around it. I totally agree with you. I’m a big believer and having a big hook. But what is the thing you’re going to put your hat on? You need to do the messaging work first and I do actually have a framework for that. That can be a whole other podcast here that we could talk about. But it starts by doing the homework and knowing your ICP. You need to understand your persona. You need to understand the challenges that they are facing.
I always say this: “Put yourself in your customer’s shoes. Think as they do. And then start formulating and creating the criteria that matters to them.” When you’re able to do that, then you can build the formation of your message. Then you need the creative side. You need that good story that can wrap around it so that it’s attention-grabbing and interesting and educational for the prospect.
[28:35] Company-Wide Collaboration and Enablement Are Key“It's not, ‘What is marketing generating? What is sales generating?’ It’s, ‘What are we generating?’” @rashmivittal10 #RenegadeThinkersUnite #podcast Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: We’ve talked a fair amount about go-to-market strategy in terms of getting the right people who can do the data analysis, to find the product marketers that know how to find and simplify the story. Let’s move on to demand generation. What do we need to do there as we work our way across your grid?
Rashmi Vittal: To foster better sales and marketing alignment, demand generation plays such an important role. If I had to think about the people part of it, how demand generation leaders and sales leaders work better together really starts with having a lot of communication and collaboration. The people need to lean in on the demand gen table together. On the process side, you enable that by having the actual meetings where the reviews can happen. There needs to be honesty, where it’s not, “What is marketing generating? What is sales generating?” It’s, “What are we generating?” Let’s just have an honest conversation about how we’re doing however you’ve segmented the market to meet your revenue targets.
I think the third part on technology is, yeah, there’s a lot of technology that’s used today. From your marketing automation tool to your CRM tool, the reporting and analytics is critical to even come to the table with sales and have that conversation to answer the question, “How are we doing, and what can we do better?”
Then there are other technologies like what we offer—intelligent virtual assistants that actually help optimize the funnel at certain parts of various stages to have higher contribution into your pipeline and higher contribution into your revenue. How sales and marketing come together and demand gen is just really about strong collaboration and communication, viewing and having an agreement in terms of assessing how we’re doing, and then letting the technology tools help you to bridge that gap where they exist.
Drew Neisser: Perfect. Then we get to this last area of enablement. Let’s talk about that. The key insights there to make sure that marketing is giving sales the tools they need to close and continue to. Talk about that part of the grid.
Rashmi Vittal: A lot of this is establishing a regular cadence of education, knowing that education is fundamental and paramount to the success of the sales team. Working with—and this is a cross-functional thing too—working cross-functionally, whether you need product or customer success to come in and educate the sales team. Knowing that that’s there, salespeople like consistency. They like to know what’s in front of them. If you have a regular cadence of education for them, they’re going to feel like they’re being supported.
Now, how you support them. There are playbooks that you should use. Every organization, regardless of who you’re selling to, should develop the playbooks and understand the methodology you’re supporting in your sales motion. Make that a standard within the sales organization. Not only does it create higher performing sales teams, but it also helps in recruiting and building larger sales teams because they know that you have your stuff together. They know where the success is going to come from.
And lastly, from a technology perspective, have the resource libraries, have the enablement tools, use third parties to come in to help teach new skills. I think this is super important. Now with where we’re at with the pandemic and everybody being remote, you need technology to help support that type of education and enablement.
[32:28] How Conversica Achieves Sales/Marketing Alignment“Once you're done painting one side of it, you've got to come on back to the front. This is a constant evolution.” @rashmivittal10 #RenegadeThinkersUnite #podcast Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: I’m guessing that any new CMO that follows this playbook will be most grateful to Rashmi for laying it out in such simple and clear terms. I’m curious, from your standpoint, where are you? Have you finished all nine of these areas?
Rashmi Vittal: You’re never finished. You’re always working on it. It’s kind of like the Golden Gate Bridge. Once you’re done painting one side of it, you’ve got to come on back to the front. This is a constant evolution. What have we done? We have pretty much hit every square on this grid at different times and based on need. Last fall, we did a lot of work around go-to-market strategy in answering the question of where the revenue is going to come from.
What that means is we determined the industry verticals we were going to go after. We revamped our ICP and our personas. And we estimated the revenue potential out of those market segments. Then what we did was work with demand gen and sales and said, ‘Hey, this is what we think. Do you agree? Yes or no.”
Obviously, we picked certain industry verticals where we already had a foothold. You know, organically, it just kind of happened. What we want to look at is, how we create and scale against that. Then there are some new industries where we’re like, “Okay, we’ve got to try to penetrate this. Let’s see how we do.”
I feel like that’s more of the game plan. You’ve got to hand that over to demand gen, into that side of the house. They could take that and now they feel like they have their own playbook that they can go build their marketing programs around and execute against. We’ve done that. We are very much focused on our go-to-market strategy. All of our programs are based on that. We’re using all the technology that I have described here.
In terms of enablement, I’m really proud. Just in Q2, we knew things were going to be a little slower on the pipeline and closing side of the house because of COVID, so we really took it as an opportunity to develop a brand-new playbook for our sales organization and then to educate them on that playbook.
We hold regular weekly lunch-and-learns for the sales team. We have guest speakers within the company and outside the company come and talk and educate the sales folks. And right now, we set up a resource library. Now, it’s nothing technically savvy. It’s in G-Drive, but guess what, it’s all there. Anytime a salesperson comes to me and says, “Where’s the latest presentation or where’s the case study?” there’s an ellipsis on the instant on Slack and they’re like, “Oh, yes, I know. The sales library. Yes, I will go find it.” It’s training them to go use those resource libraries and then the enablement tools that we have for them to just try and be as successful as possible.
[35:47] Marketing Your Alignment Plan Internally“If you don't have the trust of your sales leadership, if you don't have the trust of your CEO, you don't have the trust of your customer success for your product teams, they're not going to buy into this.” @rashmivittal10… Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: Assuming a CMO embraced this model and the grid, what would you say is the one pitfall? Where’s the landmine in this that they can avoid based on your experience?
Rashmi Vittal: There could be so many. You may feel like it’s so right to do. Like, “We just have to do this,” if in your past experience you had success doing it or whatnot. To enable this grid—and you can speak volumes about it—the people part is so important. If you don’t have the trust of your sales leadership, if you don’t have the trust of your CEO, you don’t have the trust of your customer success for your product teams, they’re not going to buy into this, especially on things like the playbook.
You really have to engage them. You have to have them be part of the solution, have them be part of the sausage making. Then they’ll feel like they have a piece of ownership. Once you get a piece of ownership, then you’re getting everybody orchestrated down the path.
The reasons why I do something may not be the same reasons why my customer success leader does something or my sales leader does something. Understanding their motivations and then appealing to them—which, as marketers, we do. You have to understand the other person’s motivation and appeal to them. You’ve got to do that. When you have that? Synergy. You’re going to see progress, but it doesn’t happen overnight. You have to continually work on it. You have to demonstrate quick wins. You have to build confidence in the system.
You know success happens when you stop feeling like you’re the mouthpiece and everybody else is talking about it because they’re seeing their own results and they’re and they’re happy about that.
[37:51] Drew’s Wrap Up: Aligning Sales and Marketing“We have a job to grow the company one way or another and we're going to do it with our partners in sales.” @drewneisser #RenegadeThinkersUnite #podcast Click To Tweet
Drew Neisser: I love that as a way of wrapping up the show because when many of us started in our career, it was about how marketing has this ta-da moment where there’s this big reveal. What you’re really talking about is how marketing and sales are acting as one. In that case, there is no big reveal. There’s no ta-da moment. It’s building trust through collaboration. As you said, there’s the quick win, but there’s also making them part of the process. It feels like that might take more time and sometimes it does, but it pays off in spades. I think that’s just such a good observation.
Sales and—that “and” part is really important. Let’s put asterisks and make it larger than the other two because that’s what we’re talking about here. It’s really saying no excuses. Marketing has this job, sales has that job—no, no, no. We have a job to grow the company one way or another and we’re going to do it with our partners in sales. Well, Rashmi, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your experience and your very simple but important grid.
Rashmi Vittal: You bet it was fun to be on the show. Thanks for having me.
Drew Neisser: For all the listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, you can thank me and Rashmi by writing a five-star review on your favorite podcast channel or by sharing it with a fellow marketer.
Renegade Thinkers Unite is written and directed by Drew Neisser. Audio production is by Sam Beck. The show notes are written by Melissa Caffrey. She also produces the YouTube version. The music was created by the amazing Burns Twins and the intro voice is Adam Cornelius. To find transcripts of all episodes, suggest future guests, or learn more about quite possibly the best B2B marketing agency in New York City, visit renegade.com. Until next time, keep those Renegade Thinking Caps on and strong.